Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-03-00 21:27
The COMPLETE birch Reply
This post is intended as a final answer to all those nagging birch questions that keep
popping up. Before I begin, I would like to make one thing perfectly clear.
THE BIRCH IS A DANGEROUS REACTION AND SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED BY AMATEURS. I mean
no disrespect to anyone by this statement, I just dont think it has been emphasized
enough how dangerous this reaction can be.
An OVERVIEW:
Technically, the birch reaction refers to reduction by sodium dissolved in ammonia.
Lithium/NH3 reduction is not actually a "birch" but for simplicities sake I will refer to
it in this manner.
When lithium is dissolved in ammonia it releases an electron, referred to as a "solvated
electron" . The solvated electron produces a "royal blue" color in the ammonia, which,
depending upon concentration, can appear almost black.
Two electrons are required to reduce a molecule of ephedrine into methamphetamine.
Therefore the proper molar ratio for reactants is 2Li to 1 pseudo. The amount of ammonia
present is not important, as long as it is sufficient to dissolve all the Li present.
This 2-1 ratio is EXTREMELY important. Too little Li and not all the pseudo will be
reduced. Too much and your pseudo willl be OVERreduced. This is the main reason
contaminants (including water) must be avoided.
They will use up some of the electrons, leaving you to "guess" how much Li you need.
Your guess will most likely be wrong.
The 2-1 ratio is based on FREEBASE stock. If you use pseudo HCL, then the amount of Li
required will be higher.
CLEANING PSEUDO PROPERLY:
Placebo's lesser cure, followed by an a/b extraction, is sufficient. Those of you using
equate suphedrine will have to change your source, as they have been reformulated with so
much povidone they will literally turn to jello upon basifying.
Obtaining Li:
eveready AA size batteries contain .94g of Li each. it is found in a flat metal strip
inside the battery which is light grey. There is another strip inside these batteries
which appears shiny. The shiny strip is trash.
All other Li batteries should be avoided. The AA's are out there. Look for them.
Obtaining anhydrous ammonia:
The ammonia used must be "anhydrous". It is impossible to use any form of aqueous ammonia
directly. Anhydrous ammonia is a gas at room temperature, and typically requires around
100psi to become liquid at room temp. It is also liquid at -33c at standard pressure.
Ammonia is a weak base, it is typically found as a salt in OTC fertilizers. Adding a
strong base, such as NaOH (sodium hyroxide or Red Devil) will replace the ammonia in the
ammonia salt, freeing it to form a gas. This gas can then be condensed in another
container which is chilled below -33c.
Aqueous ammonia can be used only by turning it into a salt, then boiling off the excess
water.A 1-1 molar ratio is required for this, and as a mole of HCL weighs about twice
what a mole of NH3 does , about twice as much hcl by weight is required.
End of Part One.
THE REACTION:
There are several different opinions as to how the reaction should be done. Some people
add the Li to the NH3 first, in order to ensure blueness.
Some add the pseudo and Li alternately, and some just chuck the whole mess in together.
I dont really know WHAT the RIGHT way is, all I know is what seems right to me.
Dissolve the pseudo in anhydrous isopropanol . I recommend about 6ml per gram. Place it
in a container as close to the volume you have as possible. Try to
avoid air space as it will encourage condensation. This amount of iso will not completely
dissolve it, but will make kind of a slush. Place this in the freezer a few
hours before your reaction is to start.
If you already have an. ammonia, then peel your batteries. This can be easily done by
cutting just through the metal casing in a spiral pattern, grabbing the end of the metal
with needlenose pliers, and unwrapping. This leaves you with a paper wrapped cylinder.
You now need 2 containers filled with naptha. The first container should be wide and flat
enough that you can get both hands in (your not actually going to PUT your hands in there,
Tasty). the second is your Li storage container. For the second container it is helpful
to have something to keep the Li below the surface (it floats). a smaller plastic lid will
work, but be sure to test it in the naptha before using to make sure it won't melt.
Take the paper cylinder and submerge it in the large container of naptha. Now take an
exacto knife and CAREFULLY slit the paper open. Try not to go past the paper layer with
the blade as it will short the Li strip. Once the paper is slit, peel it off.
This will expose the inner strips and carbon. Now unroll the whole mess quickly under
the naptha. Once this part is saturated with naptha it can no longer short out. Take the
grey Li strip, being careful not to rip it, and put it into the second container. Leave
the carbon crap in the first container till you are done. Prepare as many batteries as
necessary at this time.
IF YOU ARE CONDENSING YOUR AMMONIA, do not unwrap the paper until you have finished
condensing, just strip the metal casing.
Now for the fun part....
If you have a tank, place it in a container of ice. after the tank is chilled, add rock
salt to the ice. This will drop it another few degrees.
place your reaction vessel in ice and add an equal volume of cacl2 to the ice (this can
be purchased by the gallon as concrete accellerant) the ice will start to melt quite
rapidly, but this will give you the low temp necessary to hold the ammonia. fill the
reaction vessel with 250 ml of ammonia, plus another 100 ml for each ounce of pseudo.
Now add the pseudo to the ammonia. leave it in the ice and stir vigorously.
WARNING: THE ADDED HEAT FROM THE PSEUDO / IPA WILL CAUSE THE AMMONIA TO BOIL, ADD SLOWLY.
once the pseudo is in, and the temp has equalized (ammonia not boiling off) take your
first Li strip, rip off about 1/5th of the strip and quickly pat it dry on a paper towel.
tear it into 2 or 3 pieces (small) and toss into the reaction vessel. mix well.
WARNING: ONCE THE LI IS EXPOSED TO AIR IT WILL BEGIN TO REACT. THE PIECES WILL HEAT UP
SLOWLY AT FIRST, BUT AT AN EXPONENTIAL RATE. THEY CAN BECOME HOT ENOUGH TO IGNITE YOU,
YOUR FURNITURE, OR ANY AVAILABLE WATER DROPLETS.
When the pieces are almost completely dissolved (15-20 seconds) repeat the process. As
you near the end of your Li, the pieces will take longer to dissolve, but keep adding at
a steady rate of 1 piece every 30-45 seconds.
When all the Li has been added, and the temp has equalized, remove the reaction vessel
from the ice bath. Place a lid on it with a tube going to the bottom of a five gallon
bucket with about 1 1/2-2 gallons of water inside. to this water add 1/5th gallon of
muriatic acid.
do not submerge the hose until the vessel is OUT of the ice. If you do, the cooling from
the ice may cause the acid water to suck back. This will initiate a rather unpleasant
sequence of events.
keep mixing the container for the next 15-20 minutes. then you may place a heater in
front of it to drive off the ammonia.
Do not heat TOO rapidly, for reasons which should be obvious.
If and when your water bucket starts to smell of ammonia, add hcl till the smell goes
away, then add more. You cant have TOO much HCL.
When most of the ammonia is gone (30-45 minutes) then carefully remove the top of the rxn
vessel. Dont be a dumbass at this point and "sniff" the container. If there is still
excess ammonia, it will be no secret.
pour in 100ml water per ounce of product, then your favorite NP. Toluene is fine here.
Ether is not recommended.
now add NaOH in 1/4 teaspoon increments, mixing well each addition, until no more bubbles
evolve. the bubbles are from NH3 evolving from the water layer.
separate the NP and rinse with 2 small volumes of NaOH solution (PH 13), then with a
small volume of distilled water.
dry the NP with baked epsoms, let the epsoms settle, then decant into a clean container.
filter the bottom portion of the NP to catch any stray salt.
Gas, filter, recrystalize, and enjoy.
CONDENSING AMMONIA FROM FERTILIZER (OR ANY AMMONIA SALT):
[IMAGE]
A plastic gas can is used here as the generator. This is used because the soft sides
allow you an idea of the system pressure. There are many other containers which may be
used, but I cant think of any which are as forgiving.
While generating, the system pressure will fluctuate. If your system cannot take 20 PSI,
then you should redesign it.
During normal operation it should run 5-7 psi.
The principle of this operation is that " the stronger base liberates the weaker base
from it's salt." If your salt is ammonium chloride, then you would add sodium hydroxide
to it to liberate the ammonia. the reaction goes : NH4CL+NaOH = heat + NaCl + H20 +NH3.
The reaction requires a small amount of water to initiate, but once it starts it produces
it's own water (as well as salt).
Notice that the reaction produces heat (exothermic) as this is gonna be important later.
To produce a liter of ammonia you will need about 2 kilos of ammonia salt, as well as 2
kilos of NaOH. This is a theoretical minimum.
When buying fertilizer, look for "ammoniacal nitrogen". Forget "total nitrogen" or "urea".
If your fert is 20% ammoniacal nitrogen, then you will need 10 kilos minimum to produce
a liter. If you shoot for a liter, you will likely make 1/2 that much.
The amount of water required to initiate the reaction is quite small. If you live in a
humid climate, you wont have to add any.
As water is produced, it absorbs NH3. wherever you have water in the system you will have
lots of nh3. This includes in your drying tube. That is why your salt and NaOH should be
added dry.
Now, your ammonia generator is for the most part a closed system. The NH3 is going to
expand from the generator, and shrink as it cools on the way to the condenser.
So your generator is humming along, producing heat, gas, and water, until it reaches a
point at which there is so much water being created that it stops pushing ammonia.
The water then begins to cool, and as it cools, becomes capable of holding even MORE
ammonia. Suddenly, your reaction that was pushing ammonia is now PULLING
ammonia. This is "suckback".
When your system starts to suck, you should, quick as a bunny, open your generator. If
you do not, then the ammonia from the condenser will be sucked back into your drying
tube, and you will wish to god you had just scraped the damn matchbooks. This is a good
time to recharge the generator.
WARNING ABOUT AMMONIA:
Ammonia will seek out and bond with any nearby water. This means your eyes and airway.
You should always have a few gallons of water handy to dowse yourself with, as it may
save your life.
One breath of concentrated ammonia vapor is enough to burn your trachea and make it
impossible to breathe.
High concentrations of ammonia (above 15%) are explosive. Keep this in mind when its
time for your mid reaction toke.
gas law says that 1 mole of any gas will occupy 22.4 liters of volume at standard temp
and pressure. a mole of ammonia is 17 grams. In short, it takes very little ammonia to
fill up a room.
anhydrous ammonia is liquid at standard pressure only below -33c (-28f). This temperature
is quite sufficient to freeze various body parts.
Do not drop money into your ammonia. It will shrink (thank you slydog for this contribution).
Be sure your connections are airtight BEFORE making/using ammonia. A seemingly minor
leak smaller than a pinhole will evacuate a room.
If there is a problem with ammonia, dump water on it and GET AWAY. Hold your breath till
you are sure your clear.
END OF PART 2
DISSECTING THE AMMONIA GENERATOR
GENERATOR: (the "gas can"). This is where the ammonia is liberated from the salt. It is
important to realize that this part of the unit requires CONSTANT attention. The
preffered method is to start off with 20 ml or so of water (you may also use aqua
ammonia for a little extra kick). pour a layer of DRY ammonia salt on top, then add the
NaOH and quickly seal the unit.the salt and lye are added dry so that they do not react
too rapidly. once the unit is sealed, begin shaking to mix the fert/lye. within a minute
you will see the generator beginning to pressure up. Shake intermittently to maintain a
constant, moderate pressure. The best way to determine the right pressure is to pay
attention to the condensor pressure relief valve. When ammonia fumes begin to emit
strongly, back off the pressure till there is only a very faint amonia odor from the
relief.
Be sure to layer your fert/lye in the proper ratio, with a slight excess of NaOH. So for
a 20% fertilizer, you would add about 1/4 lb of NaOH for each LB of fert.
Small layers work best. You will be recharging every 15-30 minutes on average.
This process takes time. Expect to wait an hour for your first ML of ammonia. Mr Cleans
first attempt required about 8 hours to generate 500 ml. It also took almost 30lbs of
fert and 7 lbs of NaOH, as well as 25lbs of dry ice. It gets easier, though.
The generator will get hot. expect temps around 140-150f.
The generator must be watched constantly. It can go from positive to negative pressure in
less than 1 minute. If you have to take a leak, don't dally.
After you have been running it for a while, condensation will form in the hose coming
from the generator. (it should form a U shape before going to the precooler) You can
watch the water droplets to get an idea of the flow rate.
PRECOOLER: when your ammonia exits the generator, it will be around 140f. to condense
ammonia, you will need to cool this below -28f, in other words, its gotta drop almost
170 degrees. You will be there an extra day or two if you expect your condenser to do
ALL the work.
When the hot ammonia is generated, it carries a substantial amount of moisture as well.
The precooler will capture a good portion of this, ensuing that your drying tube does
not get overloaded.
The precooler cools in two ways. Firstly by heat transfer to the ice bath, and secondly
by expansion of the gas.
As water condenses here, it will trap ammonia with it. Due to the low water temp, this
will be about 70-80% AQUA AMMONIA (NH4OH). Towards the end of ammonia generation you may
either
1. remove the precooler from the ice bath, liberating ammonia as it warms up or
2. neutralize with HCL, making nh4cl.
Whatever you do, be sure that the tube end from the generator never becomes submerged.
It will suck the water into the generator and kill the reaction.
Drying tube: This is elevated above the other components, mainly to condense and drain
back water before it reaches this point. There are also other reasons for the elevation
that I would prefer not to discuss right now (bad memories).The drying tube should be
thought of not as a primary way of drying your gas, but as a last stand barrier in case
some slips through.
Do NOT attempt to cool your drying tube. It will cause excess nh3 to be collected there,
and will seriously fuck up your cacl2.
CONDENSER: this is submerged in a dry ice/solvent bath. An inner tube which reaches the
bottom will substantially improve nh3 condensation. Putting your PFED/ISO solution here
first, and causing the nh3 to bubble through it, will greatly speed condensation, as the
alc will act as a heat sink.
The condenser should have a large surface area, and rapid thermal transfer characteristics.
do not skimp here. Stainless steel and borosilicate glass work best. Avoid thick glass or plastic.
A while back, some bees were recommending using antifreeze as a dry ice solvent. This
WILL NOT WORK WELL. antifreeze does not transfer heat worth a damn. I did find, however,
that adding a few ounces to the bath will increase the lifespan of your ice considerably.
how do you keep the condenser from bobbing in the icebath? try adding a small amount of
water to the bath. It will freeze at the bottom, sticking the container there.
When the ammonia is condensing, there will be lots of vapor, and determining the ammonia
level can be quite difficult. Give some thought as to how you will do this.
TUBING: I prefer 1/4" vinyl tubing. It seems to work best.
END OF PART 3
FAQ:
This is a list of questions from the board. Some were included here to elaborate on
various parts of the reaction, while others were included just because they were so
damn stupid/funny I couldn't resist. Also included are a couple of answers by me which
are incorrect. The correct answers follow the "OOPS".
What are the correct ratios of reactants for a birch? And how much Li is in those
batteries?
Energizer AA Li batteries contain exactly .94g of Li per serving.
(this info from an engineer for eveready)
PS: ephedrine/psuedoephedrine freebase = 165.24 g/mole
Li=6.94 g/mole
10 g Li soluble in 100g NH3
nh3~5lb/gallon .68g /ml (according to msn encarta)
therefore:
for a 28.8 g birch using PURE psuedo freebase you would need:
2.41 g li or approx 2.57 aa strips
39 ml anhydrous nh3
a really good fume hood.
The 2450's are .47G of Li. theyre good for about 5.5g each.
the nh3 amount is an EXTREME minimum. You will always lose a little when you add your Li
and your psuedo/IPA.
Personally I have never imagined trying less than 300 ml for 28.8g. extra nh3 never hurt
anyones birch.But from what I have read the THEORETICAL minimum is MUCH less.
PS: due to losses in liberating the Li strips, if one did not have a reallly good scale,
I would recommend using ~ 2 3/4 strips. I imagined this worked PERFECTLY where refrigerant
grade ammonia was used, with 28.8g of psuedo freebase yielding 26.9g of glasslike needles.
Unfortunately, My last dream about ammonia from fert was done before I had the correct
weight. I Do know that 3 1/4 strips proved to be slightly excessive.
. Is there any way to test the purity of the recovered NH3 ?
In other words, is there a way to test liquid NH3 to determine if there is a small H2O
contamination ?
as the condenser is chilled in the neighborhood of -70c there is an easy indicator of
h20. Its called ICE. there has been no ice.
OOPS: turns out, the freezing point of NH4OH (aqua-ammonia) is 1 degree higher than the
freezing point of anhydrous ammonia.
A better answer would be that, if your drying tube is set up like I diagrammed it, then
there is no way a significant quantity of water will come through.
Umm.... can silica gel be used as the drying agent? Probably not I'm guessing, but no one
around here seems to have ever heard of Damp Rid or Dry Rite. It's a very warm, dry state
I live in the desert, and I can find it. Look at a contractor suppy house for concrete
accelerrant. Do not use epsom salt in your DRYING TUBE. the magnesium will hurt your
reaction.
.I use a paper towel at the tube opening and in the top of the jar to prevent tube
gumming and keep the drying agent from getting into the tubing. NaOH may also be used.
It is not as efficient volumetrically as CaCl2, but you WILL know when its used up.
hows the bio assay of birch product compared to rp/i?
If you have done both correctly, then the bioassay should be exactly the same. The meth
is the same molecule, so the only possible difference would be impurities. I believe it
more likely that you would have unreacted pphed in a birch.
If the battery shorts it's gone for good... right?
Depends on what you mean by "shorted". If the Li becomes oxidized, then that oxidized
portion is worthless. If the surface of the Li is covered with oxidation, that can be
removed.If it is light oxidation, it will come off when you blot it on the towel before
tossing it into the reaction.
Here's a question for the chemically inclined out there. It seems to me that adding a
few chunks of dry ice to the INSIDE of a homemade ammonia condensor would greatly
increase the rate of ammonia condensation.
This will create byproducts. It is not necessary if your condenser has enough surface
area.
swim opened a "AA"energizer lithium battery, and when swim pulled out the rolled up
contence swim found a little piece of metal that was folded over the roll, swim unrolled
it and found what you said would be there, a long shiney strip and another strip that
was a little (dull) and not as shiney as the other strip, and then the (dull) not so
shiney strip started turning dark in colour, so why did it do that, and is it still
alright to use. Swim also said that there was fumes and a awfull fucking smell when he
opened it.
When you open a battery in the air, two things will happen. First, the Li will start
reacting with the air, and second the battery will start reacting with the other
components of the battery. the "rotten egg" smell is from the electrolyte.
If there is a problem with ammonia, dump water on it and GET AWAY. Hold your
breath till you are sure your clear." Wouldnt an acid be better?
That is a reasonable assumption. HCL would neutralize it well, however in the reason I
suggest water is
1. I already said to have a bucket of water standing by.
2. If you have a problem, you wont have time to be careful, and dumping 3 gallons of acid
may cause other problems.
3. If the ammonia douses you, which would you rather pour on yourself?
Otherwise, good idea.
the addition of the IPA+pfed generates gas. How much? Lets say theres 350 ml anhydous
sitting there? How much will boil off in terms of ml's and fume wise?
The amount of gas that will boil of is variable. If your ammonia is stabilized in a cold
bath, and the pfed / iso is added carefully, you wont lose more than a couple ml.
The amount of nh3 you lose is going to depend upon your technique, your equipment, and
ambient conditions.
I dont measure the quantity of ammonia as I am performing the reaction. so the best
answer I can give is "not much".
If your somewhat effiecent with the process of peeling the caseing of the LI
batteries,there isnt a need to open them under your solvent of choice.
Actually, it is fairly important to saturate the battery innards. When you cut the
plastic open, you will find that the interior components are all quite soft.
it is nearly impossible to open the wrapper without penetrating the lower layers.
If the thing is saturated in NP solvent, then it wont short. If it is not, it almost
certainly will. You may not lose all the Li by opening in this manner, but you WILL lose
some. By opening in the manner I have described, your Li will be almost completely
unoxidized.
Do you have to ice down the ammonia tank before discharging?
Icing the tank is necessary here, if yours is already at 0c, I wouldnt think it
necessary. The reason I recommend icing the tank is simple. It drops the pressure from
100psi to (what was that damn gas law again?) about 30psi. the valves on nh3 tanks are
designed for on-off operation, and they arent very good at regulating the flow, so you
want to have every advantage possible when decanting.
Do I NEED dry ice?
I recommend a dry ice bath if you are GENERATING ammonia, but if you have a tank, just
use equal (weight) amounts of ice and CaCl2. Equal amounts of ice and H2SO4 will work
as well, but can be rather hazardous.
""!! My $8 battey is an energizer for cameras in a blue package with a black top. Is this
the "AA" you are refering to? (I've only seen these and the 2450's)""
Wrong battery. You want the $2 aa batt. it looks like a regular aa batt, (different
color) no black top. Sighted recently at home depot and wally world.
They are made by energizer and come in two varieties. a red topped battery and a silver
battery. Just like what you would put in your walkman.
We all know that the pills have been messed with big time lately, and that one of the
advantages of the birch is that it works with ground up messed up pills.
I've been reading about lithium carryover into product, and it driving the consumers to
the end of their ropes. I have a question. When dealing with a messed up
pill, how after the birch, is purification carried out? Are the ingredients just as
troublesome? A water wash would remove the lithium salts, but if the pills retain
their troublesome reaction to water, the problem is only delayed. Could someone comment?
You could just grind up the pills and toss them in, and you WOULD end up with meth. However
you would have to know EXACTLY what else in the pills is going to be reduced, how much Li that
will require, and what the byproducts will be.
Lithium carryover is bullshit. Lithium will not carry over into your NP unless you REALLY
screwed up, and a water wash would remove it quite easily.
I think it more likely that ammonia is carried over. As for purification, the methods
used for RP/I work nicely.
I have come to utilize these measures during said reaction. First, addition of minimal
amount of mineral spirits to dissolve freebase and filter through a thick medium paper
filter (if one is using coffee filters use the cone type; do not use basket type) add 50%
more ms solvent to filtered ms then add minimal amt. of MEK or DMK (preferably MEK as it is
less hygroscopic), one could also add some ether as a third solvent. Multiple solvent is then
gassed to obtain go-go hcl. Go-go obtained has consistency like styrofoam is really light and
clean; in my neck of the woods has become to be known as "Divinity".
Well, in my neck of the woods we call it ammonium chloride. Divinity does have a nice
ring to it, though. you have certainly elevated screwing up to an art form. Using three
different solvents will make sure you get the most impurities possible.
What, lithium? That shits supposed to make you happy, not sick. But, if you feel that
its tainting your product and making people sick, why not switch to another viable metal,
such as sodium.
Actually, sodium is a BETTER metal to use, due to it's lower electronegativity, it is
less likely to overreduce product. As far as making you happy, I assure you that LiOH
will NOT make you happy when you snort it.
The main reason sodium is not used is because it is difficult to obtain. It is used for
a variety of O-chem processes and is only a little less watched than RP. It can be made
by electrolysis of NaOH, but the process is a little too scary for me to attempt.
The EDA thingy is still a viable route for honey production right? I am about to dream a
dream with EDA so I hope so.
So far I have seen no credible reference to a succesful separation of the product from
the EDA. I don't know the secret, but I am pretty sure it will involve low temps, long
reaction times, inert atmosphere, and a complex separation.
I understand where you are comming from arent you expecting a little much from us hive
members? Do we really need to how and why the reaction works? It just does, doesnt it?
That how and why could only be answered AFTER a few years in school.
If you screw up this one, assuming you live through it, the most likely result will be
ten years of uninterrupted study time at the nearest federal education facility.
The reaction is basic and can be learned and fully understood by anyone with at most 2
months of study. Knowledge is a part of who you are, and it is one of the
few things that cannot be taken from you. I have an 8th grade education, yet I learned
everything I know about the birch reduction in three weeks. I never even had
to go to the library.
Too bad there isn't some kind of semi-permeable membrane which allows the ammonia to pass
through, but not the water vapor. Or is there?
unfortunately, ammonia forms a compound with water, rather than a mixture. So it is not
possible to separate from water by mechanical means.
Why can't I just use aqua ammonia? Li will reduce pseudo in the presence of H20.
(answer provided by Osmium)
Li + H2O -------> LiOH + 0.5 H2
Li [6g/mol]
H2O [18g/mol]
For every gram of H2O present you need at least 0.33g Li.
So what if I used 1l of 30% NH3? Cool, only about 250g of Li needed to dry it! And don't
forget the liquid N2 to cool this bomb...
do u use liquid ferterlizer or soild?
I recommend adding the NAOH DRY,DRY,DRY,DRY.(emphasis intended) adding in liquid form, or
to a liquid is not a good idea because:
1. water quenches this reaction by absorbing mucho ammonia
2. a large amount of liquid will cause the ammonia you DO produce to be released very
fast, like before you can get the lid back on. I made the mistake of adding naoh to nh4cl
in liquid form (from 1/4 gallon of aqua ammonia) my friend who lived 3 BLOCKS AWAY
mentioned an ammonia stink at HIS house. wanna guess how fun that was? Or you could
just try it... lol. But seriously, the little h20 I do add to kick the reaction off is under
a layer of fertilizer. the DRY NAOH is poured on top, and gentle shaking starts the
reaction AFTER the lid is on.
hey what brand is used for a solid ferterlizer???
Fertilizer availability varies depending upon your climate. Where I live fertilizer
blended specifically for cactus, citrus trees, and date palms is prevalent in stores. So
it would be useless for me to specify a brand or type because it will likely not even
exist in your area. Look for the highest ammount of "ammoniacal nitrogen". alternately,
it is not difficult to source or synthesize straight ammonium chloride, which makes for a
MUCH more efficient reaction.
Can't I just use a canning jar for my generator?
Do not try to use a glass ammonia generator, you will have nothing in the system to
absorb excess pressure, and can easily have a blowout, or lose your ammonia through suck
back. canning jars are designed to withstand great NEGATIVE
pressure, not positive. Besides, if you are using fertilizer with 20% ammoniacal content,
you will need around 20 Lbs of the stuff, and its hard to find a canning jar that size.
Why do you use the 2-1 ammonia salt to fertilizer ratio?
the correct ratio for naoh-nh3 from salt is about 1-1.8. I use a little higher ratio to
account for impurities in the fertilizer. It seems to work better for me.
can't you just pipe the gas from the generator straight into your garden after running
through a dryer?
Actually, I was forced to do this once due to a system failure which resulted in
insufficient ammonia. It worked quite well as 50g of product was produced from less than
200ml of ammonia, but I am not sure if the ammonia piping in made a difference.
The 200ml may have been entirely sufficient by itself.
I would use a large erlenmeyer flask for the condenser, or a large round bottom flask.
Also I would curl the input hose of the condenser around the bottom of the flask so that
the NH3 gas HAS TO stay in the flask longer and with hopefully condense quicker.
Actually, I believe I mentioned that. Vessel 4 has a LOOP around the bottom. The large
ehrlenmeyer is a good idea though. Perhaps If they have one at home depot I will get one.
What kind of fittings do you use?
I use fittings which are L shaped with threading on 1 end. I use NO epoxy or glue. The
fittings are right next to the vinyl tubing at some major hardware store. I drill a hole,
tap it(not necessary, but I gotta use this damn tap and die set sometime), and screw the
fitting in with LOTS of teflon tape. The tubing goes on the outside of 1 end on the L and
inside the other. The press fit seal is excellent by itself, and yes, it's not
technically " quick release", but it is quick.
could you take the hose that leaves the damp-rid jar and put a couple of rolls in the
hose and then place in a cooler of dry ice and anti-freeze.the same hose then goes to a
2nd cooler of dry ice and is hooked into the jar that is to catch your gas that becomes
nh3. is this possible are is there anybody that can tell me why this won't work?
it will work, however you run three risks here.
1. your tubing will become brittle from the extreme cold, and may break.
2.your tubing may be attacked by the chemical you choose for your bath (depends on type
of tubing and type of bath. You will have to check.)
3. You may go broke from all the dry ice you must purchase.
My pre cooler will remove a similar amount of heat,(perhaps more), more safely, and with
only about 1.25 worth of chemicals. (more cheaply if you make your own ice... see the faq
on crytalline h2o production if you are unsure how to do this).
But you ARE thinking along the right lines... how about this:
1.reduce the diameter of your tubing. less volume = less heat
2. increase the length of your tubing.
or
3. coil this excess tubing of yours in an icewater/salt bath.
you will obtain more benefits from pre-cooling if your efforts are concentrated BEFORE
the dryer IMHO.
There's a whole lot of cheap gizmos used for drip irrigation that might be REAL cool for
this application: including anti siphon valves that would dis allow "suck back".
I like vinyl tubing. I have not had problems with clogging, I am just paranoid about
clogs in the drying tube. Perhaps this paranoia is WHY I haven't had any probs. As for
the tubing size, I do not speak from experience on that, only common sense. A smaller
diameter tubing has a thinner wall thickness (less insulation) and gives the hot gas
more surface area to dispel heat through. I guess you have to actually try this reaction
to appreciate the amount of heat produced, and heat is not our friend here.
OOPS: The 1/4 inch tubing is best all around. Smaller diameters push more water droplets
further through the system. 1/4" is OPTIMAL.
1 How do you tell how much NH3 is in there?Does it matter how much Li is needed if
theres "too much" NH3 compared to E?
I take a flashlight, pop the top, and look. This is probly the hardest part, guessing the
amount collected. picking up the container and swirling it will also give you a pretty
good idea. but, as I've posted, the amount of ammonia required is actually quite small,
and an excess wont really hurt. the ammonia's just a solvent for the Li, and doesnt take
part in the reaction.
How long are your tubing?
Long as possible. there is a total of 22 feet in my setup.
Whats the best containers for the pre-chill (a gallon plastic milk jug?), the drying tube
and gas generator?
for the pre chill, any will do, I used a SS kitchen canister for my last dream, a quart
canning jar would work fine. I'd stay away from a milk jug unless you know how to make a
strong tight seal there. My drying tube is a quart mason jar filled 3/4 of the way with
cacl2.
6 When you poked holes in your thermos, did the glass shatter inside? Could i use
something else since the thermos obviously isnt one anymore now that the vacuum is gone?
a thermos w/ a glass liner will not work. mine has a SS liner. stanley and alladin make
them in large sizes. you can use an alternate condenser made of glass or stainless steel
(stainless prefferred) . bear in mind the effectivness is governed by the surface area
for condensation, and the heat transfer characteristics of the material used. thats why
SS works so well here.
NOTE: after working with the thermos for a while, I switched to a large (3.5L) SS
cylinder with about 6 1/2" diameter. That was the final generation of the condenser
for me.
How long does 5lbs dry ice last?
not long enough.
Could you tell me more of what you mean by "heat transfer"?
Heat transfer is very simple. Some materials transfer heat faster than others. that's it.
aluminum, copper, and stainless have the best heat transfer capability. Borosilicate
glass is usually made pretty thin, so its not bad either. Plastics seem to be the worst.
If you have any questions, put the container on a warm burner, put your hand inside, and
time how long it takes to burn you.
Can I use CaOH instead of or in addition to NaOH? (question repeated 23 times in various
forms)
DAMNIT, FORGET THE FUCKING CAOH. USE SODIUM FUCKING HYDROXIDE. THIS BULLSHIT KEEPS COMING
UP AND I AM FUCKING TIRED OF IT. FUCK CAOH. JUST FUCKING FORGET ABOUT IT. If you want to
use some weak ass shit use fucking baking soda and cook the shit out of it. fuck.
Ok, lets try this one: how much dry ice and sludge can YOUR little cooler hold?
I dont know, I've only put methanol, acetone and polyethylene glycol in mine.
Never tried sludge.
Seriously, it's a six pack cooler, a lunch cooler, whatever, it doesn't matter how big it
is.
is it possible to time the reaction precisely so that one knows when blowback will occur?
Yes. it is also possible to launch a satellite from earth and use the gravity of various
planets to sling it across the solar system. The math involved is similar in complexity.
Also, are you L-tubings fatter on one end, so that it looks like a plastic marijuana
pipe? If so does the fat end go in or outta the gasoline can and bell jar?
the fittings look like little pot pipes, yes.
the L goes to the outside. You COULD put them to the inside, but out is easiest.
Please don't be smokin dope outa the fittings.
I'm looking for a one way valve (thanx dwarfer), so far only a 3/4" metal has shown up,
probably insuffcient. Just what is a auto stop pvc valve?
It's a car part. just go to auto zone and ask for a pcv valve. It recycles fumes from the
exhaust through the carbureator or something like that.
I'm thinking of using a large pressure cooker lined with plastic instead of a gas can.
Then when pressure drops I'll know, and I can snip the lines a put them in the HCl.
Surly I'd be staring at that gauge for a long damn time huh? Does anyone know if the
NH3 fumes will destroy my guage?
Depends on the type of gauge used. They DO make gauges for anhydrous ammonia, which start
at about $250. I looked at some oxygen gauges, but they are nickel plated brass, which
would not work well at all.
As for the gas can, perhaps you are missing the point. the expansion and contraction does
not only GAUGE the pressure, it also helps regulate it. With a soft sided generator, the
transition from positive to negative pressure is MUCH slower, taking 2-3 times as long.
This gives you more time to react to it.
I'd like to experiemnt, but that would be a HUGE loss. Because of the cruel laws of
the universe, merely heating fertilzier produces NO NH3, uhhhh, wouldn't that be so damn
easy? Is there anything you can heat without water that will produce NH3?
You could heat fertilizer and NaOH. This would produce MORE ammonia, but then you have
the extra heat to deal with. Heat is NOT your friend here.
Or, I'm also thinking of manual release valves: one comes out the pressure release
mechanism of the gas can, so I can turn the knob open into HCl, and another at the
condensor side, the final exit, rather than peeling tape off every now and then and
stinking up the dump.
So far though, only seen copper or brass ones for water (faucet section) and that may be
no good at the gas can end, or wouldnt it matter?
First, you DO NOT want a tube from the generator to an hcl bucket. Especially when your
pressure goes negative.
secondly, a one way valve will not entirely solve the back pressure problem.
Third, a pressure release valve at the generator would be redundant. you need to open it
anyway to recharge it. What better time than right before it starts to suck?
fourth, releasing pressure from the condenser will not release a lot of fumes unless you
are overpressuring or the condenser is insufficient. During normal operation you should
not detect these fumes unless your nose is within 2-3 feet of the outlet. If you do, then
back off on the pressure.
End of PART FOUR
FINAL CHAPTER:
This is the "catchall" section for this Birch FAQ.
The ammonia generator has gone through a series of changes since built.
These are notes for using a thermos as the receiver. This had the advantage of being very
efficient with the dry ice, but it was quite difficult to drain the coolant and to
determine the level of the ammonia inside
[IMAGE]
important notes on this:
1. maybe you can drill through the cap without breaking it, but I couldnt. the current
cap is a rubber 1 hole stopper with 1/8 ID vinyl tubing running through and (separate
piece) continuing to the bottom of the thermos.
2. there is a thumbtack size hole (not shown) through the top of the thermos, covered
with duct tape.
3.The thermos was placed in a vise, and a 7/8" hole drilled with a drill press (have fun
trying this with a handheld drill, it was not easy)
4. a funnel was used to insert finely crushed dry ice, it was found necessesary to use a
screwdriver to force the ice through the funnel.
5.Thermos is alladin brand, 1/2 gallon capacity.
6.insulated lunchbox was lined with pieces of broken styrofoam cooler, then filled with
low-expansion polyeurethane foam. The remaining part of the thermos, sticking up above
the cooler, was also covered with this foam.
7. after using this condenser, I have decided I need a drain hole with a plug, as shown,
to empty coolant. currently I must clamp input tube and invert to drain.
8. after reaching temp, the unit is very efficient, and ammonia was generated with less
than 5lbs of dry ice.
And here is an idea for an alternate style condenser (courtesy Dwarfer) that I really
liked, but never had the opportunity to try.
I believe it has promise.
NH3 CONDENSER
This condenser section is a smaller PVC bucket inside another 5
gallon bucket, the intervening space is foamed in....
A 50"+ piece of 1/4 " vinyl hose is installed spiraling downward
exiting at the bottom and attaches directly to the collector.
And one other dwarfer concept. This one could use a little tweaking, but it's good.
The change requires another small pressure sprayer to be used for
injection of base into the reaction chamber. The reaction chamber
can be any sealable large port container. I still concur with Mr Clean
that it is extremely cool to have the reaction chamber be a large sprayer.
Should a mishap occur while pushing air, the hazard is minimal: particularly
when compared to a plunger volume filled with hydroxide saturated
liquid.
GHETTO ANNIE: a response to using aqua ammonia in all the wrong ways
1. freeze the water out:
Bullshit. It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate ammonia from H2o by freezing. Here are the
properties of NH3(anhydrous)-----------------------------------------------------
Formula: NH3
Molecular Weight: 17.030
Melting Point: -77.73 C
Boiling Point: -33.34
Specific Gravity: 0.77
Vapor Density: 0.597
Solubility: 89.9 mg/ 100 mL @ 0 C
### Well, Look at that... Nh3 is soluble in ice up to an 89.9% solution... Hmmm, didnt
we start out with a 3% solution?####
..... do you think that the water left in the jug is MAGIC ROOM TEMPERATURE LIQUID
AMMONIA? Who knows, Perhaps it is. I just know the aqua ammonia they carry around here,
even the 26 baume, has no such magical fluid in it. Then again I am only around std pressure
here. Perhaps some posters to this site live in denser atmospheres where ammonia IS liquid
above -33c..###
2. add NAOH in a bug sprayer and allow the water to escape through the pressure release valve:
Dangerous Bullshit. Pour NAOH into a solution of aqua ammonia and you will get a violent
reaction as the NAOH displaces the Nh3, and you will get a vapor that sprays out through
the pressure valve. Now do you think that the vapor is the water that magically became lighter
than nh3? I guess that the nh3 (gas) released through this process somehow returns to a liquid
which is so dense it displaces NAOH saturated water.Once again it's the magical ROOM TEMP
AMMONIA.
"Wait", you cry.. the ammonia is UNDER PRESSURE in the bug sprayer. It CAN be liquid at
room temp!!!!
Well then! you must have 1 hell of a bug sprayer to obtain that kind of pressure, guess these
farmers are pretty stupid buying 300+psi stainless steel tanks when they could just use a bug
sprayer. And if I was a bug in your neighborhood, guess I'd be crappin' my drawers about now.
3. Reactions with this "ghetto annie" report sparks, flames, small fires, etc:
Well then, lets do an experiment. Take a little household ammonia, Saturate it with naoh,
and toss in some lithium. Get sparks, flames, etc? Gee, I guess all the freezer, bug sprayer,
wait 72 hour crap was unnecessary.
Now read all the literature on Li birch reactions you can find (from chem abstracts, not some
guy posting his backyard birch). What reaction did the scientists with reagent grade anh.
ammonia and Li report? Just "a blue color". No sparks, no flames... perhaps they did it wrong.
To Summarize: if the people advocating this method really believe it works, then study this
post, message me, whatever. If you know it doesnt work and you post it anyway, keep in mind
that someone who tries this crap could end up hurt or very possibly dead, and thats always
good for a laugh, right?.(if they are stupid enough to try ghetto annie, then how careful
do you think they will be?)
Hopefully this will put a lid on this stupid crap.
Teflon tape is your friend. Your CLOSE friend. use it everywhere you can think of.
I'm looking for a one way valve (thanx dwarfer), so far only a 3/4" metal has shown up,
probably insuffcient. Just what is a auto stop pvc valve?
It's a car part. just go to auto zone and ask for a pcv valve. It recycles fumes from
the exhaust through the carbureator or something like that.
I'm thinking of using a large pressure cooker lined with plastic instead of a gas can.
Then when pressure drops I'll know, and I can snip the lines a put them in the HCl.
Surly I'd be staring at that gauge for a long damn time huh? Does anyone know if
the NH3 fumes will destroy my guage?
Depends on the type of gauge used. They DO make gauges for anhydrous ammonia, which start
at about $250. I looked at some oxygen gauges, but they are nickel plated brass, which would
not work well at all.
I'd like to experiemnt, but that would be a HUGE loss. Because of the cruel laws of the
universe, merely heating fertilzier produces NO NH3, uhhhh, wouldn't that be so damn easy?
Is there anything you can heat without water that will produce NH3?
You could heat fertilizer and NaOH. This would produce MORE ammonia, but then you have the
extra heat to deal with. Heat is NOT your friend here.
Or, I'm also thinking of manual release valves: one comes out the pressure release mechanism
of the gas can, so I can turn the knob open into HCl, and another at the condensor side,
the final exit, rather than peeling tape off every now and then and stinking up the dump.
So far though, only seen copper or brass ones for water (faucet section) and that may be
no good at the gas can end, or wouldnt it matter?
First, you DO NOT want a tube from the generator to an hcl bucket. Especially when your
pressure goes negative.
secondly, a one way valve will not entirely solve the back pressure problem.
Third, a pressure release valve at the generator would be redundant. you need to open it
anyway to recharge it. What better time than right before it starts to suck?
fourth, releasing pressure from the condenser will not release a lot of fumes unless you
are overpressuring or the condenser is insufficient. During normal operation you should not
detect these fumes unless your nose is within 2-3 feet of the outlet. If you do, then back
off on the pressure.
FOR THOSE NEW TO CHEMISTRY:
Here are a few important links to read:
About molar weights:
http://hive.lycaeum.org/wwwthreads/perl/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=crystal&Number=57798&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5
About acids and bases:
http://hive.lycaeum.org/wwwthreads/perl/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=crystal&Number=53123&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5
about recrystallization (for the most outrageously pure product possible)
http://hive.lycaeum.org/wwwthreads/perl/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=crystal&Number=45545&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5
AND THAT"S ALL I KNOW ABOUT THE BIRCH.
Footnote: If you have any questions left in you (and I don't know how that'd be possible) then
I am afraid you will have to find someone else to answer them.
This is my final posting to the Hive. I will no longer post or visit here. My e-mail address
which I registered under has been closed, and I leave no forwarding address. I would like to
thank Strike, Rhodium, and the others who made this site possible. Something is being DONE here,
and those responsible for this place should be proud.
As for me, I really don't know much about chemistry. I hope I have contributed somewhat, but
circumstances in my life have changed, and this is no longer the place for me to be.
Goodbye.
Clean.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
p2e3r4f5e6c7t8
(Hive Bee)
10-04-00 07:32
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
Ok then mr_clean, swim opened a "AA"energizer lithium battery, and when swim pulled
out the rolled up contence swim found a little piece of metal that was folded over the
roll, swim unrolled it and found what you said would be there, a long shiney strip and
another strip that was a little (dull) and not as shiney as the other strip, and then the
(dull) not so shiney strip started turning dark in colour, so why did it do that, and is
it still alright to use. Swim also said that there was fumes and a awfull fucking smell
when he opened it. Swim would like to know what happend and should he open the "AA" a
different way or is it supposed to do all that is mentioned.
Thank's in advance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask no question's, and i will tell no lies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarQ
(Hive Bee)
10-04-00 08:15
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
Perfect, you should know better, it has all been written 20 times before!
You should be doing it in a bucket of kero or something.
When the Li is exposed to air it begins oxidising instantly.
The one that turned black!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stonium is a bitch, and yes, I love her.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen_Washington
(Hive Bee)
10-04-00 14:00
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
p2 . . . please dont try a birch for a long, long time. If you havent read all
the posts and you dont know the Li is a metal that oxidizes to nothing quick and
explodes in water (or catches fire) then all you know is how to get you and others
blinded, killed, and have a hole put in your throat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Flesh of Your Mother Sticks In My Teeth ~ Old Easter Island Saying
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Labkey
(Hive Bee)
10-04-00 14:24
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
The birch dope I've seen tends to be non-shiny tan-white rocks that can be crushed
into a fine powder or compressed back into rocks. It can be torched like a crack rock
giving an F-16 afterburner vapor trail and still run back and forth not going away.
Characteristic smell and taste.
It seems the birch is very forgiving as even sloppy crankster gangsters can pull it off
well only after half a dozen times.
About this being dangerous... You bet. I've seen to-the-meat burns and countless scars.
And dangerous in another sense. NH3 has a alerting smell that can carry and linger.
I'd say dangerous in another, more subtle sence... Someone with no chemistry knowledge
and no ethics learns the 'recipe' from another 'cook', becomes the top dog overnight and
goes insane with luciferian-power. Dangerous to say the least.
I remember a cook's assistant saying he told them "I told them to throw another battery
in, it gives it leg". Well it seems they tweaked their process by 'add a little more
of this or that.'
Thinking back to those days, there were alot of people doing under/over-ed crank.
I doubt any of them even bothered to weigh a Li strip with their digi's let alone
calculate molar ratios or even begin to research what they were doing. Their main
business seemed to be ganking tanks.
Thank you Mister_Clean. I can imagine it exactly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
processing molecular algorithms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-04-00 19:00
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
In reply to:
The birch dope I've seen tends to be non-shiny tan-white rocks that can be crushed
into a fine powder or compressed back into rocks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is interesting. It sounds to me like you've been getting a little nh4cl and
ephedrine with your stuff.
The only birch product I have ever seen had a very clean burn, and a very slight
ephedrine taste. One interesting difference, when gassed it evolved after an unusually
long time and appeared as long thin needles rather than the typical "applesauce".
Right from the filter the crystals appeared to be spun glass.
I wonder if this was perhaps due to isopropyl impurities in the NP.
Clean.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont ask the question if you don't want the answer....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen_Washington
(Hive Bee)
10-05-00 14:49
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
Ok just a few questions.
I am hoping you will reply to that thread of STUPID questions in newbee, I have
important questions there not addressed here.
Also:
"If there is a problem with ammonia, dump water on it and GET AWAY. Hold your
breath till you are sure your clear."
Wouldnt an acid be better?
More importantly, the addition of the IPA+pfed generates gas. How much?
Lets say theres 350 ml anhydrous sitting there? How much will boil off in terms
of ml's and fume wise?
AND, can you, just put the pfed+IPA in the flask in the first place?
Imagine that, and then with a one way valve (EDIT--dwarfers idea btw) to a bucket
of HCL from the condensor! You could recharge all day and who would care? A few
bucks and some time, but no danger, assuming a way valve is available OTC that will
preent gasses from coming in, but let them out.
Barring that, the IPA+pfed in the flask in the first place might prevent some
hassle, or not?
I sincerely hope this gets published out there some how, in simple plain language
at the most nominal cost possible! This is a major leap in the Drug War,
preventing enforcement of their stupid fascist laws and controlling behavior
nearly impossible. Fuck Them! As Janey Sue used to say "Let,s Do it" !!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Flesh of Your Mother Sticks In My Teeth ~ Old Easter Island Saying
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-05-00 16:24
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
Gen Washington,
In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there is a problem with ammonia, dump water on it and GET AWAY. Hold your
breath till you are sure your clear."
Wouldnt an acid be better?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is a reasonable assumption. HCL would neutralize it well, however in the reason
I suggest water is
1. I already said to have a bucket of water standing by.
2. If you have a problem, you wont have time to be careful, and dumping 3 gallons
of acid may cause other problems.
3. If the ammonia douses you, which would you rather pour on yourself?
Otherwise, good idea.
The amount of gas that will boil of is variable. If your ammonia is stabilized in a
cold bath, and the pfed / iso is added carefully, you wont lose more than a couple ml.
And you CAN add the pfed/alcohol to the condenser first.In fact, this may help condense
the ammonia by providing a heat sink. I was going to discuss that later in the thread.
The one way valve is a good idea. An auto pcv valve would probly do the trick. I doubt
it would eliminate suckback in the system, but it would likely help a bit. Good thinking.
Initially I was intrigued with the birch because of the ease of obtaining everything OTC.
Some recent events caused me to focus more on the safety issues involved, however.
The reaction is easy to explain, and easy to perform. The safety issues involved are
complex. Frankly, the idea of certain people performing this reaction scares the hell
out of me.
That is the reason for this post. I am attempting to put everything into one place,
so that people will know what they are getting into.
Clean
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont ask the question if you don't want the answer....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen_Washington
(Hive Bee)
10-05-00 17:14
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
I'm still reeling form the fact that you always worked under a fume hood. How much
much NH3 do you lose every time you add one of your Li strips (thats cut into 12 pieces)?
Personally, if I ever did this I simply couldnt imagione finding an outdoor place
I would feel safe doing this~especially since dry ice has a limited shelf life and
this would have to be done after your ice source closed at night. I also think some
people would try it inside ayways, just because some people are reckless. I also
remember AQ talking how she worked on it inside her apartment and said it wasnt much
of a big deal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Flesh of Your Mother Sticks In My Teeth ~ Old Easter Island Saying
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-05-00 18:54
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
The amount of nh3 you lose is going to depend upon your technique, your equipment,
and ambient conditions.
I dont measure the quantity of ammonia as I am performing the reaction. so the
best answer I can give is "not much".
AQ has my respect. She was always doing crazy stuff.
As far as doing it outside, I wouldn't... but it seems like a much better
idea than doing it in an apartment.
Now I dont mind answering your questions, as there is obviously a brain behind
them, but please give me the opportunity to complete my post and THEN ask.
Thanks.
Clean.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont ask the question if you don't want the answer....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wayupnorth
(Hive Bee)
10-05-00 19:08
Re: Everything about the birch PT2 Reply
Clean: Good thought, and editting and content. *DANGEROUS* I haven't suck breath
so much since the days of working ER's during and after Nam. Only got one first degree
with a little second degrees tissue freezing from the very first time I cracked to NH3
valve and did not have the hose from the tank to the flask secure, sprays real cold
(real fast). The damage is done immediately ! *Apologies for my dumping on some aspects
of previous writeups.* All my erlenmeyer flasks are ground glass with narrower throats
than most (smaller than standard 24/40's) which made it nearly impossible to contain my
Birch in a 500-ml flask like yours which probably has a standard neck and mouth size.
Got my extractions back in line for the pills available W_U_N. Using the shortened cure
(go to whoa) by Placebo, but had to add a Whatman #54 filtering after the alcohol decants
due to a huge amount of what I think is probably micro cyrstalline coming through that was
not visible (still some red color hiding stuff) during or after my decants . My extractions
are now running 95-100% without A/B and 87-93% with A/B. Do not seed any significant
difference in yield between reaction with or without A/B, but it does seem more appropriate
to not have som much red tint as in no A/B. I'm glad to see a more specific amount on the
alcohol cosolvent as I thought I was going crazy with the amounts needed for 15-25 gram
reaction. Almost wish I could use huge amounts more with an addition funnel to drip it
in while doin the Li unrolling and cutting. Only thing I do not like about the Birch is
the spray that comes from the thermal burps blowing at any fluid I might be pouring in
whether its the cosolvent (with E) to water quenching, well the toulene pour is mild.
I do not understand why you seem to be saying put your NH3 tank on ice. I know its
warmer almost everywhere in comparison to W_U_N , but icing the tank ?!?! I have no
problem condensing the A-NH3 (its from a 150 pound tank), so is it your temperate or
warm climate ? At this moment my Birch's are getting done outside as the evening temp
is below 0 centigrade, therefore I just need to contain my reaction vessel within a foam
box. I am still stuck on my 3 neck roundbottom 3-liter as it gives me good handles to
hold onto, no spill over as can more readily happen in smaller vessels, and the round
bottom seems to keep the reaction churning well without using an external stirrer.
I do have a tendancy to add my Li quicker, with a little more over reduction due to not
being able to see the solvation color or reaction strength with the foam box, but the
ice routine is a bother. I possibly could decrease the amount of over and under reacted
E with the stirrer, but until I move the whole operation back in doors I do not want to
be dragging much out side as I live in what up here passes for a downtown area.
I haven't been letting the rxn's run much more than 15-20 minutes after adding the last
of Li figured at something like 0.089 grams Li per gram E + 0.1 gram additional of Li
per 100-ml of alcohol cosolvent ( which might explain some additional reason for
overreduced E amount). That is a top of the head guess based on number calculated
by previous molar calculations you posted. *I don't think it veries from one part of
country to another, but you do get that extra heavy, non Li, strip of metal attached
to the end of your Li strip don'f you. (Hey, I'm really not suffering from sleep
deprivation. There really is a trash peace of metal at one end of Li strip which is
longer than the Li strip is wide and a heavier gage thickness that the Li or aluminum
strip.* I then bring the vessel in as soon as I have added 100-ml DH2O, where I
finish evap and cleanup up in fume hood. I add another 100-ml or more DH2O if there
seems to be any Li remaining, followed by NP (toulene) to bring up to approx 800-ml
in sep funnel. I gave up on trying to base until -all- evolution of NH3 bubbles stopped.
I base until no more granular NaOH will dissolve with medium shaking and swirling, add
non iodized table salt (at about 0.5 teaspoon per each 7-8 grams base). After shaking,
swirling and separating I do 3 or 4 additional 100-ml DH20 washs, (I keep a electronic
pH meter in use and the pH has not dropped under about 12.6 or higher with the additional
DH2O washs). I then filter with Whatman #54 and gas in my vacuum flask. Found out it
does not take near the HCl gas as I have been using with other reaction's products.
Only about 1 tsp of salt per 5 grams of base used, along with HCl till all salt damp,
then 1-2 ml of H2SO4 per every 5 grams of base used in reaction. Swirling precip can
be seem very easily while finish up with just this amount of HCl gassing. Freezer for
3 to 6 hours produces well enough to make filtering sloooooow, but with beautifuly
glimmering bed of small crystals that recrystallize to long narrow flake like crystals
with at least half the crystals almost as thich as they are wide. I am not as careful
with my Li in as I throw the yet unwrapped, but metal casing removed batterys in Naptha,
and when I have the required number I take one at a time out slice the plastic and quickly
unroll and seperated and throw the Li strip back into the same Naptha. Get stuck with some
smell from the remains peeled from the Li, but have no room mate or woman around to complain,
and it gives me adequate reason to empty thrash after Birch is done and I think its break
time. Will have to try the HCl in water for piped off NH3 fumes as it would save alot of
wear on my squirrel cage fan used for fume hood. **Found out quickly (so thought I might
write down) that product % was highly dependant on drying --before-- gassing (ephson salts
in flask that separatory toulene is drained into with decanting into buchner for vacuum
filtration into flask I gas product in). It is amazing the amount of atmospheric water
the NH3 must be drawing into the reaction. The only indicator of water in NP is in scrud
of under and over reduced E which sits at bottom of NP. It is some really airy scrud with
hardly any mass. I have not yet tried additional heat to speed up evolution of gas after
reaction, but I do use air pumped in from aquarium pump. The air just blows across top of
reaction fluids, but has cut down evap time by at least 40 to 50%. When it hits 30 below
around the middle of December to the end of january I will have to check out the NH3
production, shit I even gave up on making CO2 snow (there are not dip tubes in the CO2
tanks up here) and I hate salting down ice as all that I can readily get up here is large
cubed ice, no small cubes or crushed. Dry ice is only available w_U_N during the summer
at super inflated tourist fishing prices. After all this non-necessary babbling I want
to once more say great write up, now if Rho will post it on his site so it is easier to
obtain when the Hive is crowed or temp off line. Still have not made it to that 95% mark
yet (Birched E to Meth). Unless I wanted to cheat by leaved in the over and underreacted
scrud, nay. Thanks again for your tolerance of us many inquirers. NH3 loss due to slow
additions of alcohol E mix and Li (if you have adequate expansion area for ammonia gas in
rapidly formed bubbles) seemed negligible (to the point where you would have to be
exceeding anal or work is very small micro scale to even consider measuring it) as it
appears that there really isn't a hell of an increase of gas leaving reaction vessel
just large but less in number bubbles of ammonia gas in reaction solution just after
additions. Other than the increases from thermal changes the gas evolution and
evaporation seems pretty linear (consistent with out leaps and bounds up or down)
in its ouput. The output seems to be mostly thermally dependent ie; temperature
surrounding flask, temp of added materials to reaction (like he said frig or freezer
before adding). Seemingly, the thermal changes within the reaction due to Li breaking
down to anion and cation, or the cleavage of OH and such seem to have little noticeable
inpact on ammonia gas evolution --in comparison to-- teemperature diffference between
condensed NH3 within reaction vessel and air surrounding the reaction vessel. None of
which is a problem as long as you start out with adequate or better yet (but not to
extremes) excess NH3, especially if you are one of those you work slowly always checking
written directions as your following them instead of having learned adequately enough
to work at a consistent rate when needed (like after the NH3, alcohol, and E are already
in reaction flask in not the time to be reading up on how much Li and how big should the
Li pieces should be). Course with the rate of evaporation being temp/time dependant if
you are working in somewhat hospital temps it really isn't that big of a problem. Go
to fast with Li additions and ending the reaction to early is a bigger problem for me
than the evap problem during reaction (and thats at surronding air temps from 30 to 50
degrees F using starting NH3 at 30% to double minimum that is theoretically required.
Basically I have a lot of NH3 and typically use probably 25% more that Clean or other
moderators types would be using.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phed up!!!!!!!!!! or as T would say: phed down or sped up, or speeds gets it up. ????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
p2e3r4f5e6c7t8
(Hive Bee)
10-06-00 00:33
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
Ok then farq, if swim dose open another "AA" lithium in a bucket of colmen's, or
white spirts, or kero or what ever, when adding the lithium to the reaction,
should swim clean it first or do some thing to if first so it dose not contamnate
the reaction, with a non polar.
Gen washington, have you been told today,GO FUCK YOUR SELF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask no question's, and i will tell no lies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SlyDog
(Hive Bee)
10-06-00 01:10
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
If your somewhat effiecent with the process of peeling the caseing of the LI batteries,
there isnt a need to open them under your solvent of choice.Once the metal case is peeled
(this takes maybe 2 minutes)SWIM leaves them still wrapped in the plastic/white paper.
Once the metal case is removed the LI battery is immeadiatley submerge in mineral spirits
(yes still surrounded by plastic/white paper cover).When its time to use them SWIM picks
one up and gets that little thick metal strip that W.U.N was talking about and bends it
downward(this tears off easily and isnt put in rxn jar),then if you look real close at
the plastic,about 1/4 back from were that metal peice was at you will/should notice that
is where the plastic/white paper begin!By rolling your thumbs or index fingers at this
spot shold seperate the two,enough to where you can easily unroll the damn thing in 2
seconds.SWIM doesnt tear the strips much more then 2-4 peices and seldom waits much then
30 seconds before depositing next LI strip.This works fine for SWIM but he knows "technically"
this isnt proper procedure.Pay attention to M.C. and ya might learn something!!And damnit,
doesnt FarQ seem to act like he's been here awhile?Who does he think he is?
SlyDog
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-06-00 08:09
Re: Everything about the birch PT2 Reply
W_U_N,
Judging by the length of your post, I'd say your gogo method seems to be working...
Icing the tank is necessary here, if yours is already at 0c, I wouldnt think it necessary.
The reason I recommend icing the tank is simple. It drops the pressure from 100psi to
(what was that damn gas law again?) about 30psi. the valves on nh3 tanks are designed
for on-off operation, and they arent very good at regulating the flow, so you want to
have every advantage possible when decanting.
As far as the problems you have with boil over, the answer to that is simple. I recommend
a dry ice bath if you are GENERATING ammonia, but if you have a tank, just use equal
amounts of ice and CaCl2. Where you live, I am sure they use tons of it in the cement.
Even if you ARE at 0C, you still should have the ice bath for your flask. Otherwise,
all the thermal increases are taken up by the ammonia. It has a high specific heat, but
look up the amount of Kj given off when the Li dissolves, and figure the amount of energy
in your PPhed /ipa that you are asking the ammonia to take. You can tell exactly how
much ammonia should boil off. Because I use an ice bath, I lose almost none.
Another thing about the birch, it seems to work better in a flatter container. The best
results I have obtained were from using a stainless steel cylinder about 6 1/2" in
diameter. It did a better job with the reduction than using the exact same quantities
in a stainless steel thermos. If I were you (living in the tundra) I would try using
either a 2l ehrlen or something along those lines. I was using about 500ml nh3 in the
cylinder, but the cylinder volume was almost a gallon (3.5L). If you looked inside the
500ml flask you are using, you will most likely see stratification in the solution
(layering). Also the extra surface area of a larger container makes cooling much easier.
As far as basing goes, you are continuing to evolve bubbles even when the naoh will no
longer dissolve? that being the case I would say you need to add more water and warm the
solution. Although I guess it is possible that you had too much Li and quenched, in which
case you have LiOH which may be reacting with the NaOH. LiOH is a pretty damn strong base.
As for stirring, if you used a bigger flask then swirling the mixture would be possible.
I have used a big glass marble in the solution to keep the pphed from settling out.
Clean.
washing with water is good, but a wash with nearly saturated naoh solution will help also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont ask the question if you don't want the answer....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen_Washington
(Hive Bee)
10-06-00 15:28
Re: Everything about the birch PT2 Reply
Fair enough, MC, I'll hold off on any basic questions since this is such an excellent write
up (as usual). but I will get into a few ideas on making this fume proof, sorta a mini
"novel synth" I am not, nor ever will be a big time operator for reasons I cant divulge,
my interests are almost all theoretical. Any dreams I may have will be small and infrequent,
and yes, inside a small apartment.
I'm looking for a one way valve (thanx dwarfer), so far only a 3/4" metal has shown up,
probably insuffcient. Just what is a auto stop pvc valve? If any one can think of
how someone can obtain a plastic , I believe they may be called "check valves" or "check
release valves" from some other type of equipment or machinery, please DO TELL.
I'm thinking of using a large pressure cooker lined with plastic instead of a gas can.
Then when pressure drops I'll know, and I can snip the lines a put them in the HCl.
Surly I'd be staring at that gauge for a long damn time huh? Does anyone know if the
NH3 fumes will destroy my guage? I'd like to experiemnt, but that would be a HUGE loss.
Because of the cruel laws of the universe, merely heating fertilzier produces NO NH3,
uhhhh, wouldn't that be so damn easy?
Is there anything you can heat without water that will produce NH3?
Or, I'm also thinking of manual release valves: one comes out the pressure release
mechanism of the gas can, so I can turn the knob open into HCl, and another at the
condensor side, the final exit, rather than peeling tape off every now and then and
stinking up the dump. So far though, only seen copper or brass ones for water
(faucet section) and that may be no good at the gas can end, or wouldnt it matter?
Of course, theres no guarantee whats good for water is good for poisonous, stinky,
incarceration-asking-for-it gasses.
Perhaps dwarfer will return here too
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Flesh of Your Mother Sticks In My Teeth ~ Old Easter Island Saying
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-06-00 15:43
Re: Everything about the birch PT2 Reply
I will incorporate your questions into the faq section.
as for dwarfer and pressure release valves, dwarfer mentioned irrigation equipment,
which I dont know about. Any pressure guage you find will have metal inside,
typically brass or copper.
I am pretty sure dwarfer will be back in a couple weeks. Word on the street is
he's terrorizing the natives along with uncle Ho Monga.
Clean.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont ask the question if you don't want the answer....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SlyDog
(Hive Bee)
10-06-00 22:34
Re: Everything about the birch PT2 Reply
M.C.,in your last post(part 4)I noticed as part of your FAQ you used some info
I had posted about the importance of opening LI batteries under a solvent.Maybe
I worded it wrong.What I was talking about was opening them from the metal case,
not the plastic.Come to think of it,I feel stupid,of course you wouldnt open the
case under a solvent.The confusion was my part!Sorry
SlyDog
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-07-00 00:43
Re: Everything about the birch PT2 Reply
Slydog,
You know WHAT works, and it's obvious you are trying to understand WHY it works.
Too many people stop at the what.
As you mentioned battery dissection, I would like to introduce a concept I have
yet to see discussed here.
We all know (if we have opened a battery before) that batteries will spark.
We also know that the Li goes into a NP.
So before opening any more batteries, let's think about this: how flammable is
our storage solvent??
Naptha is pretty stable. A naptha saturated battery will not spark.
Boy, this is good stuff, maybe I'll put this in the post too.
As for sly, I left it unsaid, but I noticed that you soak the innards before
opening them.
And if I were you I'd lay off the brake fluid for a while. I believe you are
stepping on fman's territory. If you are not careful he may "show you the darkness
which you seek".
Kinda gives ya the chills, don't it....
Clean.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont ask the question if you don't want the answer....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SlyDog
(Hive Bee)
10-07-00 02:09
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
After the innards are seperated from the metal
case,I dont see how a spark could concern anyone
anymore then they should be already.Ive yet to
witness a spark "post-seperation",during the
period when the metal case was being peeled is
the only time Ive witnessed a spark of any type.Im fairly sure
of the cause of this,therefore,while
seperating LI strip from the rest of the
innard-crap isnt a concern.Also,in Labkeys reply
on Birch dope charateristics{lotsa vapor,runs
back and forth,etc..}you said it sounds like
nh4cl.When dwarfer spoke of some
"fools-Birchdope"(from his posted thread-"looks good but isnt")
that didnt melt and had very little fumes.It was concluded
this was nh4cl.I dont know about you but to me
these two "end products" sound completely
opposite yet both are refered to as nh4cl.Could
you clue me in on that Mr.BirchGod.
SlyDog
p.s.I would be honored to
see anything FMAN would show me!
Chills???not hardly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-07-00 09:33
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
Characteristics of NH4CL:
SUBLIMATION: this means it has NO liquid phase (like dry ice). when melted it goes
from solid directly to gas. It therefore leaves absolutely NO residue on foil.
To read about nh4cl, it separates into Nh3 and HCl upon heating. You would think
the shit would be quite caustic when smoked, yet in reality it is not.
The confusion you see is this: In one case I was speaking of PURE NH4Cl, a
sublimating solid, not dope, but somewhat bioactive (placebo effect perhaps?)
Not unpleasant to smoke.
When you gas, the meth and NH4CL come out in two distinct phases, one forms crystals,
the other forms white powder resembling gypsum.
In the other case I was referring to a COMBINATION of meth and NH4CL. This burns clean,
runs forever on foil, and leaves a clean fairly clear oil, and cracks back very clear.
You have access to ammonia, so the best way to learn about the stuff is to make some
and examine it. take a small amount of ammonia and bubble HCl gas through it..
(or you can easily set it up so both combine in gas phase, use the product gas from a birch.)
once you have a sample of the stuff, play with it. Taste it, burn it, etc., This way you
will be able to recognize it.
The first time I saw it, I assumed it was overreduced product. However, when I did some
further research (I was trying to figure out WHAT it reduced to, as it had no similarity
to aziridines or P-2-P) I discovered that it had more similarity to nh4cl than anything.
Then I obtained a sample I knew to be nh4cl. Bingo. That was the stuff.
Clean.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont ask the question if you don't want the answer....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen_Washington
(Hive Bee)
10-07-00 13:39
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
____________________________________________________________________________________
So before opening any more batteries, let's think about this: how flammable is our
storage solvent??
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pretty fucking flammable if its in a small container with .94 gr of Li and is suddenly
tossed in your toilet!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patiently Awaiting The Video
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-07-00 17:04
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
Actually, my experience with Li is that it's not much of a problem with an excess
of water. The water absorbs alot of heat. The problem seems to be with water DROPLETS.
As far as sparking goes, you run that risk whenever you pierce the "skin" wrapping.
if you break through past the first layer, it will spark.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont ask the question if you don't want the answer....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mister_Clean
(smartass)
10-07-00 22:07
Re: Everything about the birch PT1 Reply
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bye Bye Bee's.